(Nancy) Brent, I have Shirley on the line, so we have 7 here - a quorum.
(Brent) OK, Nancy, well then since we have a quorum, I call the meeting to order.
(Brent) Item 1. are there any comments to the minutes of the last meeting?
(Jurian) None here
(Shaul) Hi folk, sorry I'm late
(Shaul) Took a while to connect for some reason
(Nancy) Nancy and Shirley have none.
(Mary) None
(Gerard) None
(Shaul) None here
(Jurian) Sol: no problem :)
(Brent) We just got started, sol, welcome
(Shaul) Thanks
(Jan) No comments (was not on the Board then)
(Brent) Then the minutes are ratified as correct, and approved
(Brent) Item 2 Welcome new Board members!
(Jan) Thanks!
(Mary) Thanks too!
(Brent) Questions or comments from Jan or Mary?
(Mary) No, I will take my que from you all
(Jan) Brent, I was on the Board in 1999, chose not to accept my nomination for 2000, so unless things have changed dramatically, there are no specific questions from my side
(Brent) OK, thanks Jan. Well, a hearty welcome to you both, and I guess we will move on...
(Shaul) Welcome folks!
(Jurian) Yeah, welcome :-)
(Brent) Item 3 Annual Admin Steps - Report by Nancy
(Jan) Thanks all - good to be back!
(Nancy) I have nothing new beyond what was stated in the Agenda.
(Brent) Have all the members reviewed the posted agenda?
(Mary) Yes
(Jurian) Yes
(Nancy) Annually we re-reregister with Delaware, do diligence with the IRS if we pull in more than $25,000 in grants, and put an Annual Report on the web.
(Shaul) Yup
(Jan) Yes - I have it up & available
(Brent) OK, any questions or comments?
(Gerard) Not from me
(Mary) None
(Jurian) None here
(Shaul) None here
(Nancy) Wegner LLP is filing with the IRS for us, and we issued 1099's to those who received an award for their accomplishments.
(Brent) Very good, thank you Nancy. Moving on to Item 4 Annual report Discussion.
(Brent) Oops, didn't mean to cut you off Nancy!
(Nancy) I'm done, Brent
(Brent) OK
(Brent) Item 4 then....
(Jan) I have no comments to Item 3 - Annual Admin Steps
(Nancy) I made changes to reduce the size of the photos, and include a worm muffin (we didn't have a photo of the soup), per the last meeting suggestions.
(Shaul) It looks good! kinda like broccoli...
(Shaul) Sorry, I meant "brussels sprouts"
(Brent) My only comment on Item 4 is very nice Nancy. Well put together, very informative, and great pictures.
(Nancy) I also included new photos of the worm drainage as hydro solution, as Walgreens has a GIF option (I have no digital camera).
(Nancy) Except for updating the financials, when we get the final Balance Sheet next week, this annual report is done, per my opinion.
(Mary) Accepted as presented
(Brent) Yes, well done!
(Jan) Looks good
(Shaul) The report is fine, and the photos look real good too.
(Gerard) Looks good and so ...
(Jurian) Yeah, looks very nice :-)
(Jan) We will have to make some changes to the Short Wave project - I'll get back to that
(Brent) OK, Jan
(Jan) Also, the pictures are nice, and show the projects "in flight"
(Brent) Well, if there are no other comments, lets move on to item 5 Jan's internal Auditor's Report
(Jan) As can be seen linked from the agenda, I posted two items on TT Inc after my visit to Nancy
(Brent) No problem Sol, we moved on to item 5
(Shaul) Cool
(Jan) One was releated to the equipement & projects. All equipment is available for inspection on the site, and all project equipment is either up & running or available for a new cycle
(Brent) Yes, Jan, I've read the posted link, any comments from anyone else?
(Jurian) No comments here
(Nancy) I think Jan let me off the hook on accounting, as fully 1/3 of the discrepancy problems were mine!
(Shaul) Doesn't sound like it was a biggie...
(Nancy) These are basically transition problems, my and Wegner talking to each other effectively, and difference between the way Ron and Wegner keep books.
(Jan) The 3 projects Earth Worms, Hydroponics & Fish Tanks looked extremely interesting - I do hope to be able to duplicate them this autumn
(Shaul) Cool, Toni's coming
(Mary) Nancy, easily understood and time will give you experience
(Brent) Well, there was a financials transition to be worked out also....
(Jurian) Welcome
(Nancy) Brent, we resolved that this past week.
(Shaul) Hi Toni!
(Brent) And it came together nicely, thanks to the effort of both Jan and Nancy.
(Brent) Welcome Toni!
(Nancy) The issue was a missing $105 which Ron had put into the books in an odd way, Video Sales. He was trying to have Geson's vide as an asset, downposting this with expenses, so it was a negative asset.
(Jan) If we are now moving on to the accounting part, I see no problems with the discrepancies found. A treasurer in a non-profit does not need to be an accountant, and of course minor mistakes & misunderstandings will occur. There were no major problems found
(Shaul) Yes, this sure does seem like a very small disrepancy
(Nancy) In addition, when we got $5 from a private individual, he entered this into several accounts, Cost of Good Sold, etc., and got tangeld up in his underwear, so it became a negative deposit.
(Mary) I agree, there was no money lost, only debit/credits
(Jan) Some of the problems were wordings only, like ane expense account that was labled cash. Another problem was the negative asset Ron recorded, which should have been a project expense
(Nancy) Good idea gone bad, so we straightened it out by just calling the production expenses a project cost, and any funds from video sales as simple income.
(Jan) A third was the bookkeeper had used wrong debit/credit for the compensations. One minor problem I found was that Nancy in fact pinpointed the actual accounts debit/credit for each expense, which puts too much responsibility on her and does not utilize the bookkeeping service to its fullest
(Nancy) The final changes went under the CPA's eye, and in the end we were off by $19 from the bank account. They are resolving this with an adjustment so we match the bank. Considering what these books went under, with the Gift Pool closing and a temporary banking done by Ron before we got our Bank Account setup, this is mild.
(Shaul) Sure, this is very good
(Jan) Business as usual, as far as I'm concerned.
(Nancy) There were wire transfer charges, and changes like the Campground here becoming a Room & Board credit against me that the nonprofit holds, so $19 is small, I think.
(Shaul) Absolutely
(Toni) Ok, guess I finally made it
(Jan) We also decided to expense out all assets below USD 100 now & for the future, and group the rest into 4 major categories, as has been done on the Annual Report
(Jan) Hi Toni!
(Brent) Toni - we are now on Item 5 of the agenda...
(Brent) Moving fast today
(Toni) Hi Jan
(Nancy) Yes, this was more or less what the CPA brought up, thought Jan likewise had this as an issue. Great minds thinking alike :-).
(Shaul) It's very good, because I may have to leave soon...
(Toni) Ok, thanks, I had printed the agenda
(Brent) This is a good idea in my opinion Jan, Nancy. Less hassle.
(Brent) OK, Sol
(Jan) Given the history of the TT books, it is great that the dicrepancies are as small as they are. Good work!
(Brent) The books seen too be in fine order, and under excellent care!
(Shaul) Yes, they seem to be just fine
(Brent) Shall we move on to item 6 Brochure design/status?
(Mary) Yes
(Shaul) I say yes
(Jurian) Agreed
(Gerard) Yes
(Toni) Yes
(Brent) As Nancy mentioned, I feel it has moved beyond Brochure status
(Jan) One question - rewording of the Short Wave project - shall we do that before we move on?
(Brent) For printing and expense purposes we should be calling it a booklet... comments?
(Mary) How many pages are we talking about
(Nancy) Jan, do you mean in the Annual or as a project? Just tell me what verbiage you want changed. If a project, and radical, then perhaps the Board needs to approve.
(Jan) In the Annual, it says today: ... has developed web based self-study classes and pactice sessions to develop these skills in the public."
(Nancy) Starting my wordy discussion on the brochure/booklet.
(Brent) OK....
(Jan) I don't think this can be taught over the Internet, but that our project must base itself on licensed HAM operators, concentrating on the post-PS exchange of information. I do not have any rewording as of now, can get back to that within a few days.
(Nancy) I loaded PageMaker to see the page sizes available: letter 8.5x11, legal 8.5x14, tabloid 11x17, letter hald 8.5x5.5, legal half 8.5x7
(Nancy) Then there are various odd shapes for CD covers, etc.
(Mary) Are you printing and publishing the book yourself?
(Nancy) Shirley and I have discussed this, and the issues are that the booklet may be 20 pages or more printed on both sides. Thus, it seems too large for letter half if we must staple 20 pages - right?
(Roger) Finally! Geesh, I thought I would never get in.
(Gerard) Roger: we arrived at point 6
(Nancy) Also, the pages may be replaced as new info becomes available, so not stapling right away, only before mailing, may be wise.
(Roger) My gosh!
(Mary) If you use a binder/plastic honeycombs/ it is easily put together
(Roger) I guess I've only been running up and down the hallway for an hour now.
(Mary) Cost of binder is the $ part, the plastic is relative inexpensive.
(Nancy) Jan, my thoughts are that you should e-mail the Board wilth wording changes for informal approval. Then I'll change the annual or web project, etc.
(Mary) Goes fast when you get the hang of it, I could find the costs for you as I have done this often. It can be pulled apart and redone in minutes.
(Brent) We are printing and binding this "inhouse" then? Would save costs.....
(Nancy) Mary, I will be producing the raw pages, probably in B&W as color copies are expensive, so want to know the best size for layout, etc.
(Jan) Nancy, that's OK. The Short Wave project rewording will be handled off-line after this meeting.
(Nancy) Then, can go to Kinko's to copy, staple, as called for.
(Toni) I presold Xerox digital and digital color copiers last year
(Mary) Kinko's is ok but I think it may be more cost effective if we could do it "in house". I volunteer to put it together, depending on the cost of shipping pages to me and cost of materials. Let me get a price per book together.
(Toni) There are small ones
(Nancy) Mary, yes, please look into expenses. The effort could be done by me, as it is a brainless evening task to do while catching up on the news or watching a movie, etc. I like to have my hands busy.
(Toni) Most copiers will staple
(Mary) Crazy lady! like you don't have enough to do. But yes, I will look into costs.
(Nancy) Mary, I've seen plastic binding that is a simple long pinching rod, runs along the left hand side. Others require holes in the paper. Which are you talking about?
(Mary) Breaks up too easily. The one with the holes. The binder machine runs about $80. Again, let me get some numbers together.
(Nancy) Mary, if coping in house is possible by you, etc., then the only cost of shipping is the raw pages, the masters.
(Mary) Correct. I do not have a copier but could get it done easily at .05C per page.
(Nancy) $80 cheap! Also, indeed, copy costs out of house are not cheap. If one has a copy machine handy, then ink and maintenance can be picked up by the nonprofit, no problem. In fact, a purchase may be in order!
(Toni) Sounds reasonable
(Mary) Lets put it on next months agenda and I will see what I can come up with.
(Brent) I'll be happy too...:-)
(Nancy) Shirley says, "Even a copy machine comes out to 5c a page, when you consider toner and all".
(Brent) How many books are we talking about to begin with?
(Nancy) OK, then the issue is page size. Letter at 8.5x11 is most often done, but eventually I see this booklet bing a hip pocket thing, more easily carried and not soiled, etc., as a reference on foot.
(Mary) I agree. 1/2 legal page.
(Nancy) 20 pages printed both sides is slender, folded over makes a nice handful. I'm kind of leaning to the letter or legal half! But, what about a binding machine for that?
(Mary) Any size can be bound. The smaller the page the less expensive the binder. Are you planning on any particular type of paper?
(Nancy) Brent, we don't know the demand yet, but given the Planet X sighting, things may heat up! Best to have a situation where we can handle light demand, or an onslaught. Scalable is the word :-).
(Jurian) Isn't it always? :)
(Brent) True...:-) do we want to start with 20, 40, 100?
(Nancy) Mary, what would you recommend?
(Mary) I say, 20 and then if pages need to be added it is less to redo. 100 could be put together in a day or so, no problem.
(Nancy) Brent, re quantity, as Mary says, doing fewer means less re-work when pages need to be changed.
(Brent) Yes, I agree, and 100 doesn't seem too bad.
(Nancy) There would also be a time lag of a week or more, as the 'orders' would come into the PO here, then be forwarded to Mary by e-mail, etc. So she would have a warning about quantity and have them ready when the addy's come to her, etc.
(Mary) Works.
(Nancy) Also, Shirley is getting setup, within a couple months, in a location where the 800 line would be dropped to her.
(Brent) Excellent
(Nancy) This would allow a real human to answer, her voice on the machine if she is not home, and this would relieve the forwarding of voice mail rquests too.
(Mary) I like it.
(Nancy) Shirley says "I would forward any booklet requests to you, Mary, via e-mail".
(Mary) OK
(Nancy) Shirley says "Regular bond paper seems best"
(Mary) Good. Easily found.
(Nancy) Nancy says, however the cover should be a stronger bond - right?
(Mary) Yes. I will add that into the cost.
(Nancy) If the demand heats up, and we get a zillion requests, then we can look into having print shops give us a quote.
(Mary) Do you have a cover outline/name/picture you are going to use?
(Nancy) There was also the issue of payment. Do we charge cost? Or do we, to start at least, just mail them out free?
(Mary) How much will it cost to mail one? We need to see.
(Jan) I see the recommendation for 1/2 legal size. What about 1/2 letter? In Europe, we use A4, which is a little longer and a little less wide than letter. If we are to print the booklet locally, resizing letter / A4 is no problem, but we do not have any equivalent to legal.
(Nancy) Shirley says "At least to start, lets make it free, because if people get it and they don't like it, they are not likely to pay for it".
(Shaul) I say that it would be much better if we were able to give it away for free.
(Nancy) I agree, and this is a SERVICE/EDUCATIONAL organization, primarily!
(Jan) I agree - the booklet should be free
(Shaul) Question is, can we afford it, given the present money we have
(Jurian) Yeah, agreed
(Mary) OK! However, if a thousand requests come in, we may need to reconsider. We can deal with that if it happens.
(Jurian) Indeed :-)
(Brent) Good question Sol, mabe we can start out free, and deal with the situation month by month.
(Mary) After we get the costs together, we can appropriate the $ into the budget.
(Nancy) Jan, good comment! We need to look into this before making a final decision. A4 is one of the options in PageMaker. Also, what size booklet would fit into an inexpensive envelope!
(Toni) How about first copy free, then additional are extra, like if someone orders for a group?
(Brent) Good point Toni
(Nancy) Mary, I have not designed a cover yet, but will for review, etc. Maybe next month's board meeting as we have
decided on a general size, etc.
(Mary) Could we just charge for shipping? modest $1 US
(Mary) Stamped self addressed envelope?
(Nancy) Also, I have put into each topic in the booklet the 'Troubled Times web site topics' and not the URL, as if/when we get a T1 line, the TT web site may have its own domain.
(Jurian) good :-)
(Nancy) I asked a techie about having many domains point to the web site directories as currently laid out. NO changes to the web site would be required!
(Jurian) Agreed, wouldn't be a problem
(Nancy) The way we use relative referencing in the pages, now, allows many domains and the links would work A-OK! This means that Zetatalk, Troubled Times, the Nonprofit - all could have separate domain names.
(Mary) Perfect.
(Jurian) The only issue is when switching pages to unix machines.. a lot of links break due to the fact that unix files are case sensitive, but windows is not.. this isn't too hard to fix tho
(Nancy) Thus, the booklet could say on the back page, URL for Troubled Time's URL for the nonprofit, etc. Last minute change to the back page.
(Nancy) Toni! I like that! Shirley does too! 1st free, charge for more copies!
(Jurian) Yeah, makes sense :-)
(Shaul) Well, there is a problem with that, like what if the person wants just two or three more, for his neighbors or something?
(Jurian) We would need some sort of database with who has ordered one or more tho, or they might very well keep ordering them one by one
(Mary) So what?
(Jurian) Sol: then they share the little amount of money it'll cost
(Nancy) Jurian, I have always uploaded in lower case, and all links in lower case, for that reason. We should be OK, are today, in future.
(Mary) If someone wants to go to all the trouble to get some extra's free, more power to them. I wouldn't want to know that someone was tracking me on my orders.
(Shaul) Shoot...
(Jurian) Nancy: hmm, the copies I used to "rip" from the server sometimes had case issues.. but I had made a small tool to fix it, so even IF that's still the case, no problem :-)
(Nancy) Well, the stop is that we don't want orders for 100 or 1,000. If they order 7, each individually, this is OK and not the issue, really.
(Mary) I agree.
(Shaul) So we would have to decide on the exact or approximate "cut off" number
(Mary) Just the first one free.
(Shaul) (Sorry, that's just my precise lawyer mind thinking...)
(Mary) Additional copies at $?. US$ how to accept foreign currency?
(Nancy) Jurian, if there are things slipping through, let me know, as I maybe need to adjust my routine here.
(Brent) A cut off number would be helpfull in determining when we need to print up more, keep track of when our stock will run out.
(Shaul) Truly, folks, I think this is a big issue, because it's our image as an "educational nonprofit" that's at stake.
(Nancy) Jurian, maybe external links? Sometimes they have upper cases, and I leave them that way.
(Shaul) Most educational organizations I know do not sell their material, they make money off donations and give their material for free
(Mary) Lets start out at free and then adjust if there is a volume problem.
(Jurian) Nancy: no, they were internal links, will have to look it up, it might be fixed
(Jan) Could the booklet be generated in Adobe .pdf format for local printing by anyone interested?
(Nancy) Foreign currency can be an issue. Mailing expensive. Right now, the video goes out and we are well above the $5 requested, if it goes foreign.
(Mary) Excellent idea Jan.
(Nancy) BUT, basically, I think we should start and adjust when we run into problems or out of money :-)
(Nancy) Sol, well stated!
(Mary) Most internet users are adept at using Adobe.
(Shaul) Right that sounds reasonable
(Jan) The printed booklet will be for the non-IT people. Color printers are inexpensice these days, so many people could be able to download & print themselves. Would ease our burden, and the cost would be on the one downloading the .pdf
(Jurian) Yeah
(Nancy) Jan, and EXCELLENT idea! I have a Adobe reader, but not application to produce, but maybe PageMaker can do this. Anyway, a very good and feasible idea!
(Brent) Very good, Jan
(Shaul) That would still limit it to the very few that have access to those machines
(Nancy) The software probably runs a couple hundred bucks, if that.
(Jurian) Shaul: every PC (and mac) can read .pdf files, you just need to get the reader for it
(Mary) It's free on the internet.
(Shaul) I know that, but not everyone has a. PC b. color printer
(Brent) Adobe PDF reader is availabel for free on adobe's site
(Jurian) NancyL: Quark Xpress makes pdf's I think. The reader is free, the tools to create pdf's aren't
(Shaul) I distinctly recall a sentiment expressed once, that we don't want to become an elitist group, available only to those with access to a computer
(Nancy) I produced my book in PageMaker, with gray scale pics, so they can be discerned well. But having color in Adobe is an EXCELLENT idea, takes the guilt away!
(Jurian) Shaul: for those without a computer, there is the printed version
(Mary) Shaul, you misunderstand, I think. This is just an additional option.
(Shaul) Ah, ok ok
(Mary) The book will still be printed.
(Brent) Yes, an additional option
(Jan) Shaul, As I said, the booklet for non-IT people, .pdf for those that want to download
(Shaul) Right, right, I didn't see that
(Nancy) Jurian, yes, Adobe makes a 'production' software, not sure of the cost, too.
(Jurian) There are probably linux tools to make pdf's for free tho
(Jan) I think Adobe Acrobat costs about USD 100
(Mary) Realistically, how many people have heard of TT off the internet?
(Brent) Quark is a different company, Adobe PDF reader is free.
(Mary) If we offer this on the internet we could save mega costs in printing/shipping.
(Nancy) Jurian, I have Windows 95, not Linux, thought the servers have that. But our servers will be serving, right?
(Brent) If feel that once the printed versions start getting around, the demand will increase. Word of mouth.
(Mary) Well, that's good too.
(Shaul) Friends, I'm terribly sorry, but I just got this phone call from work (this is a workday here) and I have to urgently help them finish a bug in a project...
(Nancy) Our NT server does not want to do a lot of other tasks, and when online and serving, gives poor service to any other requests.
(Shaul) Gotta go, sorry about that!
(Mary) See ya Sol.
(Jurian) Yeah, they'll be serving only.
(Shaul) If I can just ask one thing that I was going to bring up -
(Jan) See ya, Sol!
(Brent) See you next time Sol!
(Nancy) For USD $100 we should buy the application!
(Shaul) If you guys can discuss the problems we've been having on the lists with Christer using Nancy's e-mail address.
(Brent) Sure Sol, go ahead
(Shaul) This is really been worrying me.
(Shaul) Thanks, and see you all later!
(Nancy) Then you get the manual, etc.
(Shaul) Bye
(Jurian) Bye Sol :)
(Nancy) Shirley says "and the updates, and tech support, etc."
(Brent) You can bet that one's coming up Sol!
(Roger) Bye, Sol.
(Nancy) Bye Sol!
(Mary) I really like the .pdf format idea. Can we get some costs together for the next board meeting?
(Jurian) Adobe website: Make unlimited PDF files for just US$9.99/month or US$99.99/year. (Currently available only in the U.S. and Canada.)
(Brent) I think this would be a reasonable purchase for the Inc.
(Mary) I do too.
(Jurian) (This one is web-based tho, you don't get anything, just an account on their website which allows you to generate the pdf's online)
(Jan) I just checked the Adobe Web site. New copy: USD 249, upgrade USD 99
(Mary) Still not unreasonable.
(Brent) I agree
(Jan) The upgrade comes without a license number, the old license number is used
(Nancy) I second Mary's suggestion to get costs together for the next Board Meeting - Adobe, binder, paper and copy costs, etc.
(Brent) Well, should we vote on this now, about making the purchase?
(Mary) No, lets wait.
(Nancy) We also need to look into envelopes, what size booklet fits into something standard, before making a final decision on booklet size.
(Mary) Right. I will get various sizes priced out.
(Brent) OK, agreed, on the next agenda then.
(Nancy) Meanwhile, I can start to layout as the booklet size can be changed on a work-in-process.
(Brent) Great, are we ready to move on to Item 7 Project Status?
(Nancy) Shirley will send me the rest of what she has, and I'll put the content on the web. This web for review is NOT what it it will look like, kind of just slopped up there for content review.
(Nancy) Yes, ready to move on, Brent.
(Mary) OK move it.
(Brent) Jan, radio project?
(Jan) Ready
(Brent) Go for it.:-)
(Jan) The Radio project will have to change somewhat. I do not believe we can teach Short Wave via Internet
(Brent) Ron's technique wasn't working?
(Jan) Instead, we have to encourage people to get their HAM license, including Morse (for access to HF). You cannot purchase an HF radio without being a licensed HAM operator, nor can you go on the air. So, the base will be different. Then we need to work out which protocols to use for digital communication. There are a number of packet radio protocols we need to evaluate, and there is a "chat type" protocol (not really packet, but uses the PC) as well.
(Nancy) Jan, what were the problems with Ron's approach? Too difficult unless the instructor was there? Ron used to also complain that folks did not do their homework, first.
(Jan) a, You just can't learn HAM radio that way
(Nancy) I think that Ron was using a chat to instruct, but little was done on the actual relay of packets. It was not to that point, yet, I think.
(Jan) b, It is illegal to go on the air unless you are licensed
(Jan) c, We need to practice pre-PS
(Nancy) Jan, perhaps you can do a writeup for the next Board Meeting and we can change the web site, accordingly!
(Jan) Will do!
(Nancy) I agree that a standard protocol is de rigeur.
(Jan) Ron was probably too qualified, thinking it would be easy to get people up there. I started from scratch, and have checked all the requirements etc. You can't learn to fly on the Internet either, but you can get some of the basics.
(Nancy) I know that Ron was very very disappointed that folks did NOT do their homework as he also required this of them.
(Jan) I think bottom line is: Get people on the air pre-PS. Post-PS, we can only work with the experienced HAM operators that have equipement that made it through.
(Jurian) Agreed.. get a working global packet network in place if we can pre-PS :-)
(Brent) I like your approach, Jan.
(Nancy) Jan, having you as a newbie, and then laying out the approach is great, because you know what others will have to do!
(Brent) Yes indeed!
(Jan) Brent, it's the only possible for me, since I started out with absolute nil knowledge about the field
(Nancy) Also, there seemed to be so many options, that folks got overwhelmed.
(Brent) I like Nancy's idea. Jan, a write up for the next meeting?
(Nancy) Jan, you have BOTH the newbie view, and the instructors view! Having been a newbie, you can emplathize.
(Jan) Step one will be: Anyone interested in post-PS communication, get going TODAY! If you will be heading for a planned survival site, make sure at least one member is a qualified HAM operator, and that you have the required equipment tucked away (including antenna, tower etc.). A write-up will be provided for the next meeting.
(Brent) Great!
(Jurian) Cool :-)
(Jurian) I need to start learning Morse Code.. heh
(Brent) Nancy, shall we move onto Hydroponics and fish tanks?
(Jan) There is one short-cut without Morse Code, but I wouldn't recommend it (as you could not use HF pre-PS).
(Jurian) Exactly
(Nancy) Yes.
(Brent) OK, Nancy you have the floor.
(Nancy) The hydroponics lab is resting now, as I completed the apples-to-apples experiment and am just putting the final report on the web. Essentially, worm bed drainage works AS WELL as store-bought nutrient solution, all the way, on all counts. It lasted longer, did not need to be refreshed, as the TDS kept rising due to that timed-release mechanism.
(Mary) Is there any " tweeking" you still need to do?
(Nancy) It supported growth in plants equivalent to the store-bought solution, on all fronts. In fact, the bean plants seemed healtier, the only difference being that some plants like tomatoe had a slight yellowish tinge (pea green) not dark green, but were doing well. On Jan's visit, we noted that the Rocket was putting up seed stalks, and the tomatoes bloom pods. So the lesson learned, I closed down the cycle to save on energy bills and my time. Am planning another cycle late Spring or early Summer.
(Nancy) The fish died, due to a yellow dye in the food. I was unsure during an early die-off, assumed the bio-filter was not working, and changed out half the water. However, 6 weeks later, when the water was clear enought to read the lettering on the bottom of the 2.5' deep tank, the die-off happened again! Mustard yellow tinge to the water, and a yellow foam plume at one splash point. All consulted felt it was in the food, the only additive. Now, lesson learned for the $100 lost ($37.50 fish, $46 cycle starter, $48 fish foos) is that one must be very very careful what is added in a close loop environment. At the end, I was feeding the fish worms, and they liked them, ate them. I think the next cycle should be 100% natural. Also, in the water, since the fish water plants did poorly (beans, etc.) compared to worm bed drainage, I want to try natural water plants.
(Jan) One comment, if I may: Post-PS, there will be no fish food available, unless you have stored it up. The next cycle, if possible, should try to run without such external additives. Would that be possible?
(Nancy) The watercress did very well just floating in the tanks. Perhaps rice in the flow tubes, etc., something that likes water, prefers water, etc.
(Jan) Oops - you already mentioned that...
(Nancy) I also want to get into algae, but don't have the specifics worked out yet.
(Nancy) End of report.
(Mary) Excellent Nancy!
(Brent) Yes, well done! :-)
(Brent) Comments?
(Mary) What is the reason for the algae?
(Jan) When visiting Nancy, I was impressed by how she has carried these projects along after Ron left.
(Nancy) Mary, I did no 'tweaking' on the worm bed drainage. We added this Oct 16, 2000, ran it for 4 months, only added 2 gallons set aside when the water had evaporated. Essentially, where one had to refresh and boost the store-bought, this was not necessary in the worm bed drainage solution.
(Nancy) Mary, algae is a great human food, also fish eat it, and can clean up sewage. So, how the synergy works is well worth exploring.
(Mary) I didn't know that.
(Nancy) I think many of these ideas are not NEW, but as the worm bed drainage thing pointed out, this was a great idea UNKNOWN elsewhere. In fact, the hydroponics experts would tell you otherwise - that this is not possible, won't grow anything much, and were not even aware of the TDS increase, the timed-release.
(Jurian) Hehe
(Nancy) Darryl Jones of Vital Earth did know about the timed-release, and knew the reason.
(Mary) OK questions answered. Thanks
(Nancy) So, what we are looking for is proving the theory, or finding new pieces to the solution, so that it all works smoothly and we can with assurance tell folks that.
(Brent) OK, shall we move on to Seed Hubs/seed team status Roger and Toni?
(Nancy) Jan brought up another important point, which is how BIG should a setup like this be to feed a family.
(Brent) Oops, sorry :-)
(Nancy) I have located a chart in the Hydroponics book the nonprofit bought for me :-) which shows the difference in produce per acre for outdoor and hydroponic gardens. This might be a basis for such a calculation. I'm putting this on the web in the Hydroponics TOPIC this coming month. Also, I'm very tempted to buy a couple small chicks, cost about $1 each, and raise them on worms! An idea Ron had, actually.
(Jan) The project setup looks much bigger on photos than in real life. My worry, planning for a larger site, would be (as Nancy pointed out) the size needed, plants to choose to have something available at all times etc.
(Nancy) If I keep them in the basement, they might be called "pets" as we aren't supposed to be keeping them.
(Jurian) Heh, cool, chicks are good food, and give eggies as well :-)
(Gerard) Yes, ... indeed about chickens
(Jurian) Their.. uhm.. dropping.. are quite strong tho I think.. be carefull with plants around them
(Jurian) I think that was chicks anyway
(Jan) I also have one other item that we need to look at for these projects, which is adapting to a post-PS energy environment (DC only in most places)
(Brent) My thoughts also, Jan. Mabe the chart could calculate food needs for a survival comunity also.
(Jan) Today these experiments run off the grid on standard AC.
(Nancy) Jan, an excellent addition to the list of projects! Perhaps I can bring that list forward for the next Baord Meeting also.
(Jurian) Yeah, are there any off-grid energy projects?
(Jurian) Heh, right :-)
(Gerard) Important issue I think
(Brent) Do you want to do this for next meeting, Jan?
(Jan) I have posted my updates on the energy research on TT Forum. My last visit to Southwest Windpower in Flagstaff, Arizona, was quite interesting. Maybe we should add an energy project this autumn?
(Jurian) That'd be great :-)
(Jan) I can make an intro for the next meeting. Physical tests cannot start until spring/summer though.
(Brent) Of course, intro would be good.
(Jan) Have you read my energy updates on TT Forum?
(Nancy) Jan, yes indeed, Shirley and I were just chatting here about what should and should not be funded. Running a setup with DC only, and pining down the problems and filling in the blanks for a solution is indeed a worthy project!
(Brent) I did Jan, nice report, and I downloaded them for inclusion to the next web wrap.
(Jurian) Lists of where to get the equipment would be very nice as well :-)
(Nancy) Most of our projects are documentation projects. Unless something needs to be fine-tuned, or explored, it should not be a funded research project.
(Jurian) DC power is essential to a LOT of projects.. hydroponics, ham radio.. and more
(Jan) Nancy, I will start out by own budget, then if this takes off or my funds get depleted I'll get back to the funding.
(Nancy) Shirley says "I think the On Foot and Clothing projects should be entirely dropped. There is a wealth of survival info out there, some of which the brochure will point to, and people can find their own solutions from that"
(Jurian) There's loads of good survival books, I agree we don't really need to "invent the wheel" again
(Mary) Shirley, I agree. Clothing depends on location.
(Brent) Jurians right, no need to reinvent the wheel.
(Jan) This will be the "how to", which windmills to use etc. No basic research, all that we need to know about DC is already known.
(Jurian) A list of good books would be nice tho
(Mary) I'm not sure about the "on foot" though. I would need to review that part.
(Nancy) For instance, if a University lab wanted to work on carbon arc lights from pencil leads, and this looked feasible, THAT might be a funding candidate. Something NEW to be learned!
(Brent) As people contribute, I've been saving the list off for posting.
(Jan) However, certain appliances are not available for DC. The Amish way of solving such is LP gas, kerozene etc, not much help post-PS. Some AC equipment via inverters will be needed
(Nancy) Most of our projects are just documentation projects, and say so.
(Jurian) IF you can set up a stable AC grid, that'd be very nice, but I think that's quite hard to do
(Nancy) Shirley says, "Mary, take a look at the On Foot part of the brochure, on the web. See if anything is missing"
(Roger) The On Foot project was something started way back in the early planning stages by Ron. Michael picked it up recently and should probably be given the opportunity to contribute in this low-cost (by design) topic.
(Mary) Will do Shirley. Off hand I think this is a viable subject.
(Brent) Roger, I contacted Michael, there is a link off the agenda to his reply email. He's no longer in a position to contribute to the project. Divorce, new job, etc.
(Nancy) Roger, yes, Ron was the driving factor in this, was convinced that the existing literature did NOT cover what an on-foot person Post PS would encounter. I'm not sure that this is true, as there will be so many variations on this. Depending upon where you are, what country, etc., each case would be different. Stating that we need to distill water and eat bugs is not much different than the survival books tell us now.
(Roger) I remember his news posting, but I think he may need the project soon to help ease his stress (give him something to do...).
(Nancy) Shirley says "and how to start a fire".
(Nancy) They even explain how nature can give us toilet paper :-)
(Mary) Nancy, you're right, but there would be basics that no matter where you are would apply.
(Brent) Good point Roger, I could ask him about that.
(Mary) A basic survival backpack should suffice for now.
(Nancy) Mary, yes, I agree that documenting the basic backpack is a good idea. But does this need more than a documentation?
(Jan) Nancy, I would be interested in that natural toilet paper - this has been bugging me in my planning so far... :-)
(Jurian) Heh :)
(Brent) I was wondering about that also!
(Jurian) Poo in a river :P
(Mary) Nancy, no not more than a basic list. I think Clipper has something posted.
(Jurian) Be sure to go downstream from your camp tho :P
(Nancy) Jan, the TT web site has this in Hygiene TOPIC.
(Brent) Hmm...I missed that one...
(Jan) Nancy, did you collect this from the discussion two years back?
(Nancy) Jan, the toilet paper stuff is actually from a Usenet, I distilled the best from that. This is some of the existing documentation that is available, just need to find it, pick out the best, etc.
(Mary) Back on track: Didn't Wendy apply for a clothing project?
(Nancy) And this is what we're trying to do with the Brochure.
(Jan) Yeah, I can't remember we had any toilet paper solution at that time. Got to be a discussion about the Arab way (why the left hand is considered unclean etc.), but no solution at the time.
(Roger) Yes, Wendy has the clothing project. The project there was for her to be video taped while making clothing to show techniques, etc.
(Brent) Yes, Mary, her response in linked from the agenda also.
(Mary) Is this still on going?
(Brent) She's "unmotivated" at this time.
(Jan) Back on track: A clothing project will be extremely important for the areas where the climate changes for the colder.
(Mary) Uh oh. Are we at a dead end on it then?
(Nancy) I think this shows how quickly volunteer projects can hit the skids. This is something all nonprofits deal with, a reality. However, this also was a project that was a documentation project, to start with, and only went beyond that because Wendy was enthused and had a lot of low-cost ideas.
(Brent) It may need to be picked up, or does the booklet cover some of this?
(Mary) Has anyone talked to her lately?
(Mary) I haven't seen her post for a long while.
(Brent) I did Mary
(Mary) And?
(Nancy) Shirley says "There are lot of books with information on how to use things like spinning wheels, etc., and Nancy will point to some of them at the end of the Clothing summary in the Brochure".
(Brent) As I said, she said she was "unmotivated".
(Nancy) Shirley says "Let people go out and find their own solutions! We do not have to hold their hands".
(Mary) OK... acepted Brent.
(Mary) Shirley: way to go girl
(Brent) So true, Shirley!
(Jan) A spinning wheel is of no help if you do not have anything for it, and I think it would only be available in antiques.
(Nancy) We are looking for video clips, for when the servers get online, but there also may be many video clips already available.
(Mary) I think a reminder that people will need to prepare for a different climate may be all that we need to mention.
(Nancy) For instance, there are documentations on old fashioned ways of doing things, that include videos one can buy.
(Brent) Yes, good point Mary.
(Jan) I believe most people getting into a colder climate will enter die-off group 2 (those that go in a relatively short time after the PS).
(Nancy) If we give free advertising, as in 'courtesy of xxx' they may let us use a part of their video.
(Nancy) Just thinking of how to go from A to Z, quickly, over the next year.
(Jan) There is no way you can teach someone from sunny CA of FL how to dress for cold climate if they haven't experienced it, nor would they have such clothing available post-PS
(Nancy) I think the need is for folks to research what already exists, and document, etc.make a summary. Doing from scratch should only be if the info does not exist.
(Mary) Agreed.
(Nancy) Shirley says "Like shipping containers as shelter".
(Mary) Huh?
(Nancy) Indeed, this was a novel idea of Clippers, and does NOT exist anywhere documented.
(Jurian) Heh, be sure to take the locking thingies off, if you use a container :P
(Brent) Hahaha
(Jurian) Or be sure you can open it from the inside
(Jurian) They are usually air tight tho, so be carefull!!
(Mary) Where are we on the agenda?
(Jurian) Near the end of item 7 I think
(Gerard) Still at point 7
(Mary) Down to?
(Brent) OK, moving right along, any discussion on seed hubs, or unix servers?
(Jurian) Not much to discuss about the servers.. can't do anything until they're online
(Brent) True Jurian
(Nancy) The UNIX servers were setup and booted here by my husband when he visited Thanksgiving. They are ready to go online so Jurian can tweak them. We are only waiting for funding so we can get a T1 line or uplink.
(Roger) Not much to say re seeds either. They are still storing quite nicely and waiting for distribution.
(Jurian) sweet :-)
(Toni) Seeds, we have some new ones to add to the list, such as the rocket, my Brandywine tomatoes, Roger's new corn varieties
(Nancy) My thinking on seeds is that the last year may be the big push where we get a lot of requests. We have equipment here, at my site, which will be mostly idle this summer. If we can get this Troy Bilt tiller, at least, in operation full time, this would be good. We need hands, loaned land, to use our equipment. Any ideas?
(Nancy) We also have tools that were used to build the worm beds, and they are idle too. Just a reminder.
(Roger) Is it feasible to ship (or haul) one or both of the tillers to alternate locations?
(Nancy) Yes, some seeds that Ichi brought from Japan grew well here, short cycle, and I tried them in the hydroponics lab. Rocket, which gets it's name from it's rapid growth I think, and Chinese cabbage, both did well.
(Toni) Nancy is the Rocket available to Barry, say, for instance?
(Nancy) Other cabbage products require a rest year, a root cellar, before going to seed.
(Nancy) Roger, if the tiller would be used, then shipping is worth it. I just think we all should be mulling this over, back of our minds, how to get this equipment used fully.
(Toni) Rocket (arugula) is a gourmet green here grown in the commercial hydroponics operation
(Nancy) I had hoped that having that article in the local papers would bring folks forward here, to offer land and time, but no such offers.
(Brent) Well, maybe in the spring? One can hope.
(Mary) I remember Ron saying he was having lots of requests for info on land in your area. Did any of those happen?
(Nancy) Toni, I have lots of seed, and can distribute, etc. Rocket was a good plant!
(Toni) Great
(Mary) Why aren't these folks stepping up to be recognized? OK, Dumb question...
(Nancy) Brent, having folks offer their time seems to be where we stall. Volunteers, etc. We have a loaned acre here, same as last year, but who has the time? I know I won't this year, etc.
(Toni) It is labor intensive.
(Brent) Yes, I see. Needs constant care and maintainance.
(Nancy) Mary, no, Ron was frankly hoping that the area would become a survival site area, and encouraging this. But, it did not happen. Wishful thinking, perhaps.
(Roger) I personally would love to lend a hand with the loaned acre, etc. There is the unfortunate difficulty of the commute :-(
(Toni) Could we offer an internship for someone willing to work the land?
(Nancy) Shirley points out that only she is working the brochure, but we had asked for experts to produce these summaries.
(Mary) Experts?
(Nancy) Frankly, when times get tight, many volunteers seem to go off and tend to their problems! This is what I've observed.
(Mary) Human nature.
(Nancy) Those who are already swamped, do more! There is a saying, if you want to get something done, ask a busy person!
(Brent) How do you mean "Internship" Toni?
(Toni) Perhaps, a student, or someone especially interested in heritage seed saving. Could do a co-op type study project, we could meet some basic living needs.
(Nancy) Roger, is there land near you, and could you get the volunteers, and have the tiller shippped to you?
(Roger) I had applied to U of W and was accepted, but they did not have funds to spare to support me.
(Toni) Many CSA's and farms offer this opportunity
(Roger) I am working on locating land near me. My goal is to find 15 to 25 acres by mid-summer and then prep it for fall/next spring use.
(Toni) Plant buckwheat!
(Nancy) Roger, if you get such a site, then the tiller should be on it's way to YOU!
(Roger) (Hence the reason for my mentioning it!)
(Toni) How many times during the season did you use the tiller, Nancy? We used to do it just once.
(Nancy) Toni, we used it to till the loaned acres, and the garden here, but we also have a small tiller here which is sufficient for the seed garden by the house here. After the loaned acre was tilled, there is sat! wasted!
(Toni) Oh, general cultivation and weeding, then. Big expense. Won't work, post PS.
(Brent) Yes, I think if Roger finds his land, he should be able to use the tiller.
(Nancy) Toni, it needs gasoline, etc.
(Roger) And perhaps anyone else that has a need for it.
(Brent) Agreed, Roger
(Nancy) Yes, the theory is that seed itself will become unavailable in 2002, for instance, and we want to seed community gardens, those who will establish community gardens.
(Roger) It really is most useful at the beginning of the gardening project, not in an established garden.
(Nancy) So, getting into production, getting setup like this, would allow us to hire folks when we have the money for this, during that last year or so.
(Toni) Are we discouraging individuals from ordering seed from us? Just concentrating on communities?
(Roger) We should also be thinking about how to package our seed for distribution. Do we continue to select based on experience and interest, or do we subdivide our quantities automatically.
(Nancy) Toni, I don't know? We had a lot of problems with growers who took seed but never returned. I think we need to qualify closely, ultimately. Right now, we're just encouraging home growing and seed collection, I think. Seems to me.
(Roger) Our biggest interest was pre-Y2k. Now there are few out there who remember us.
(Nancy) I had hoped that retired famers would get on board, grow seed for us big time, but this did not happen.
(Toni) I wonder if we could keyword link Heirloom, Heritage Seed, etc from the website
(Nancy) Toni, ultimately, I think the best insurance for having the seed best used is to require a group approach, the community knows who got the seed, and they all watch each other!
(Nancy) In other words, a new grower who will waste the seed, will not be allowed to do so.
(Toni) and to grow like you did last year, one needs a community of workers!
(Nancy) I'm trying to build in controls, to ensure our seed will go to the best setup. Right now, we're just teaching individuals, but also getting prepared for 2002, a very scarry year, I suspect.
(Nancy) Toni, good thinking! Go for it and let us know!
(Nancy) Other seed organizations may join with us, when the time comes, indeed!
(Brent) Yes, Toni, you could contact them, and let us know next meeting!
(Brent) Are you up for it?
(Toni) Contact who?
(Nancy) However, it seems to me many of the seed saving orgs are money oriented. They want a profit, etc., will sell to those who have the money.
(Roger) Seed Savers Exchange is not that way.
(Nancy) Roger, if you don't have seed to "exchange", then what?
(Brent) Contact Heritage, etc, see if they could link to our site, and vic versa
(Nancy) Toni, we do link from the Seed TOPIC to various places to buy seed, I think.
(Toni) No, what I mean is if you do an internet search on heirloom seed, does it pull up our webpages
(Nancy) When you said "link" I misunderstood.
(Brent) Me too
(Toni) I'm sorry
(Brent) No problem..
(Roger) The exchange is made in that you offer your seed to and purchase seed from others. The cost is minimal and offers little or no profit.
(Toni) Like when I first found ZT, I had searched on poleshift. I knew what I was looking for. So if you search for heirloom seed, do you find us? My son has lots from Seed Savers Exchange. Good folks!
(Roger) The headquarters also maintains a vast storage of old varities of seed that are either no long offered by any members, or are standard varieties that should not be allowed to perish. The organization is also non-profit and International. They will donate seed to educational institutions and for certain research purposes.
(Toni) (They will donate seeds to us?)
(Roger) I once approached them for a donation, but was apparently overlooked. It was just prior to Y2k and they were likely swamped with requests for donations. We could re-approach them.
(Brent) Will you do that, and discuss next meeting, roger?
(Roger) I will compose a letter by next meeting and offer it to the board for approval before sending it out.
(Brent) sounds good.
(Toni) That sounds goood
(Brent) Ok, we're running long, so shall we move on to the last item? Site blockage, and the Christer issue?
(Toni) I don't know how to reword the webpages so they would include heirloom and heritage. Sorry
(Brent) It's ok, toni :)
(Roger) Isn't that included in the heading information of the html code?
(Toni) Yes
(Nancy) I want to say that unless Jurian has some ideas, I don't think there is anything that can be done about blockages or e-mail forgery.
(Gerard) Jurian: you made a drawing right ?
(Roger) What happened? What is the Christer issue?
(Jurian) I wrote something up.. would like you all to have a look at it: http://home.kabelfoon.nl/~jurian/route.html
(Nancy) I was blocked from my site, only for days, could get throught to all other internet sites, but my ISP would/could not find the problem. These databases get refreshed at least weekly, so any block is short lived.
(Jurian) Hrm, wait
(Jan) I think we have to close the groups so that web access is for members only, and that list membership application is moderated
(Jurian) That url is about being blocked like Nancy is (was?)
(Nancy) However, a hacker, especially a government hacker, can have their way pretty easily, I think. Forgery is also easily done, fairly easily, though it can be detected and traced, I've learned. However, this is all after the fact, dealing with the problem after it occurs, and giving the perp heat.
(Jurian) Yeah, hard to do anything to prevent it from happening
(Mary) Can someone inform his ISP like was suggested and complain?
(Nancy) The issue of moderating the lists came up once before, Kiko wanted this, but was put to a vote and voted down, by TT membership at large. This brings problems also, in that mail is delayed, and folks feel they are being restrained.
(Jurian) So set it so new members have to be approved before they can post and kick out trouble makers
(Nancy) Why can't the perps be removed, promptly! Why is Christer still posting?
(Jan) There are two kinds of moderation. Moderating the postings will create too much work. Closing the list and moderating the sign-ons create less problems, but should give good enough control
(Brent) I thought Clipper was handling that, removing christer?
(Mary) He posted AFTER Clipper dumped him.
(Nancy) I can tell you that flooding or spamming also are hard to deal with. Flooding, where the same message gets posted over and over to an e-mail addy, can have an e-mail screen, as the same thing is coming over and over - identified.
(Toni) He used Nancy's email addy
(Brent) Yes, Toni, and I'm not sure how.
(Toni) The lists should be closed
(Jan) Jurian. I though Yahoo groups required a cookie on the PC?
(Roger) What (or where) did he post? I seem to have missed something.
(Toni) watch
(Nancy) Jurian, approving new members will not work. They behave, get approved, then misbehave.
(Jurian) Nancy: yes, and then they get kicked out
(Brent) Roger, this all happened this morning.
(Jurian) So they can only post one or two abusive mails
(Roger) I see, I'm not subbed to tt-watch.
(Jan) My personal feel is that Clipper is somewhat too tolerant, so things are allowed to carry on before he acts
(Toni) Watch has been the 'hot' one lately
(Jurian) Jan: a cookie? For e-mail? Nope, no such thing
(Toni) There was no reason for Christer. That was flgrant abuse
(Nancy) By using my e-mail addy, then we can go to his ISP, and should do so immediately! Indeed, he will not have internet access because of this. This is the route to take! Forging my name is illegal, I'm sure.
(Brent) Christer never should have been let back on the lists
(Jan) Jurian, for web-based e-mail? Obviosuly, Christer cannot have received any mailings intended for Nancy. Could he still have posted via e-mail?
(Mary) So how is this done? ISP contact.
(Nancy) Some forgery goes by routes that disguise their original ISP, but Christer is just being obnoxious, not clever. Jan, I agree, Clipper needs to be more harsh.
(Jan) BTW, is Clipper alone as list police, What about Kiko?
(Jurian) Jan: nope, he can't read any mail, he can post tho
(Jan) And what should we do when Clipper goes to his site without any Internet access this summer?
(Jurian) Any known email address set as From: will be accepted by the list
(Jurian) We need more people with moderater access.. simple as that
(Gerard) I am also one ... but then Clipper is more harsh than me although I removed some of the emails from Crister too from the yahoogroups.com
(Mary) Can you remove ALL from Crister?
(Jurian) IMHO, the board members should have moderater access to the tt lists, be it solely to deal with lamers like Christer
(Brent) Good thinking, Jurian. We'll all help remove him and keep him off!
(Jurian) Yeah
(Gerard) Right ...
(Nancy) Some years ago, Gerard, Clipper, and Pat Thomas were elected to be the cops. This is not a nonprofit issue, but the 100's of folks in the TT mailing lists and who have contributed to the web site content, the voting membership of the web site. This is actually not a nonprofit issue!
(Jurian) I see, that makes it harder :)
(Brent) Yes, it does...hmmm
(Jurian) It will be when the lists run from the new servers tho, as it will be "our" servers, we have the right to block abusive people
(Jan) Then we need to put it to another membership / mailing list vote, to get more "list police"
(Nancy) Indeed, but as this is a mailing list, not a nonprofit issue, it should be raised by to the mailling lists for resolutions. I in fact have moderator access to all except tt-social.
(Jurian) (which does not mean we need access to the lists, there are more efficient ways to block people) :)
(Nancy) I can act as the list serve cop. But I don't read all the mail. So, let me know if someone is mis-behaving, and I'll kill them!
(Jurian) :-)
(Jan) Jurian, as you said, that will be when we have our own servers up
(Jurian) Yeah
(Mary) In the mean time?
(Jurian) Not much we can do except keep kicking him off
(Gerard) Right :(
(Brent) And Nancy said she can do it as a moderator.
(Jurian) or moderate the lists and have enough active moderators so it wouldn't take too long for people's posts to get thru
(Jurian) But that's up to the membership I guess
(Nancy) I can do the kicking, but who is going to write Christer's ISP? Is Clipper doing this?
(Mary) Unknown.
(Brent) Can Clipper make the complaint, or the one who is being violated?
(Jurian) Both
(Mary) Where's Sol when we need him?
(Jan) My guess is that the membership does not have any viewpoints on whether the moderator question is an Inc issue or not. Why not just make it an Inc responsibility??
(Nancy) Everytime we have an important issue to be discussed (such as finding Planet X, the sighting) we get this type of kill the mailing list behavior.
(Jurian) And yahoogroups should be included as well
(Nancy) In other words, they want to STOP us from discussing the important issue.
(Mary) Certainly has worked.
(Jan) I don't think Crister actually has been wanting to harm the Planet X discussion. He is just making too many stupid comments, "me too"s, the occational "Nancy is nuts" etc.
(Mary) While the forgery of Nancy's e-mail is serious. May I suggest that NO ONE respond to any of Christer's posts.
(Mary) Jan, he really likes to hit you.
(Jan) I agree, if Christer gets on again, ignore him. I will.
(Nancy) Jan, because the membership of the mailing lists, the voting members, have the option of joining the nonprofit and have mostly decided NOT to do so. We don't speak for them.
(Jurian) Heh, I was argueing with him in private email
(Jan) I do not think he has understood the seriousness of forging Nancy's e-mail address, though.
(Brent) Yes, Mary, and I believe this was already suggested on the lists by someone.
(Mary) And the moderators will keep trying to get him out.
(Jurian) He just doesn't give a rats ass about the lists, he just gets a power trip kick from annoying us
(Brent) agreed
(Mary) True... he thrives on anger.
(Jurian) And Clipper won't be writing his ISP just yet, he will if Christer continues to do this shit tho
(Mary) So, have we resolved any of this?
(Jan) Mary, That is only because I was the one targetting him. He did not listen to reason, and started getting back in different ways. Finally went over the edge, this time more serious than before (ref Nancy's address)
(Roger) I'm sure glad he hasn't found the other lists :-)
(Mary) He will.
(Nancy) Jurian, I'll write his ISP. What is the ISP info? Can you get me the PostMater addy?
(Jurian) abuse@telia.com
(Jurian) cc to postmaster@telia.com
(Nancy) It's usually PostMaster@ whatever the .com is.
(Jurian) And yahoo's abuse address
(Jurian) Yeah, but most ISP's have an abuse@ just for this kind of stuff
(Brent) He will just have to be permanently barred from all interaction, no acceptions.
(Jurian) Just send to abuse@ and postmaster@
(Jan) Based upon a comment he made to me, I think Christer in fact may be working with Internet issues himself. The latest ISP he used for posting was spray.se
(Brent) And all moderators should be made aware of this.
(Roger) Can we block him from the other lists (before he disrupts them too)?
(Nancy) I want to tell you that ignoring folks does work, in the end. I've had folks write me hundreds of e-mails, and finally give up because I MEANT it went I said I'd ignore them.
(Jurian) Christer is a network admin
(Gerard) He used spray.se but he posted from telia.com for what I saw
(Nancy) However, for a mailing list, this is disruptive as many will not stay with it, due to the traffic.
(Nancy) OK, I'll write the ISP.
(Nancy) What's Yahoo's abuse addy?
(Jan) Gerard, you are right. Sorry. Spray doesn't run their own ISP. The 2 largest ones in Sweden are Telia and Tele2.
(Jurian) Hmm, dunno about Yahoo
(Jurian) I tend to use Yahoo as little as possible.. don't trust them a single bit
(Mary) If there is no more business, I gotta go.
(Jurian) But probably abuse@yahoo.com or postmaster@yahoo.com :)
(Mary) I will get my stuff together for the next meeting and thank you all.
(Brent) Yes, Mary, we are runing long, is there any objection to adjourning the meeting?
(Jurian) None here
(Roger) See ya Mary.
(Mary) Bye.
(Roger) I move to adjourn
(Jan) Bye Mary
(Jurian) I second
(Brent) Second?
(Brent) Hehehe
(Nancy) I agree, adjourn
(Brent) OK, the meeting is adjourned.