12-May-96

Note: it is a general Troubled Times policy to change the names of IRC participants to screen names and remove personal discussions that occurred during the chat in the interests of privacy.

VIOLA: I'm thinking that if it is just the 3 of us, and we are all such core folks, long timers so to speak, that we should talk philosophy. For instance, what are we trying to achieve here, on the web, what's the goal. For instance, we're trying to educate people that the Pole Shift is coming, for one thing. We do this by pointing to the various prophecies, the earth changes, etc.

NORSEMAN: I think that the goal is to inform as many people as possible..

VIOLA: But primarily I think that the goal is to put together a solution set that folks can survive with.

NORSEMAN: I think that this is one of the major goals, informing people about the Pole Shift.

VIOLA: There are lots of sites that deal with the fact of millennium changes, prophecies, etc.

NORSEMAN: Yes. Warn them is just one thing, but they need to know what to do..

VIOLA: And there are now a few that also deal with how to live through those times. Phoenix is one such sight. You've browsed there, Norseman, what do they offer?

NORSEMAN: Some info about survival.

VIOLA: A comprehensive solution set is what is needed, where it is not just spotty, but covers all aspects of survival.

NORSEMAN: Yes, you're right about that..

VIOLA: For instance, if folks are told to gather batteries and canned food, but not about the long term, it does them little good ultimately. The batteries will die, and the food run out, and then what! Likewise if they are prepared to grow food with worms and mushrooms at a minimum, they will have calories and protein, but will be vitamin deficient.

NORSEMAN: Then they should know how to 'make' their own food etc.. That kind of thing..

VIOLA: If they die from scurvy, what good does that advice alone give to them, its not enough.

CARRIE: What I wanted to know, is what do we wear during conferences?

VIOLA: So my thought is that what we offer should be comprehensive enough that folks won't die and won't lose their knowledge base either. Hahahaha! Saw a comic where an Internet Barbie was dressing in jogging outfit, sipping latte, no makeup. About right. I'm in my nightie.

CARRIE: I mean, sometimes, people are naked, in pajamas, etc. Just a funny thought! Lighten everything up a bit.

VIOLA: What are we missing from our site, that is a necessary ingredient for survival?

NORSEMAN: Yes. We should give more info about how to survive...

CARRIE: Survival could be a problem

VIOLA: For instance, we are covering shelter, with dirt packed around tires and a metal roof to protect from fire storms, also winds will sweep over if it's shaped like a mound. Norseman: do you mean just survive the quakes and wind and firestorms alone? Yes, I think we gloss over that.

NORSEMAN: Also how to survive the aftertime..

CARRIE: I think first, folks will have to know where to go.

VIOLA: But it is really the Aftertime that is a concern, as surviving buys nothing if one can't live afterwards, starves or gets sick and dies, etc.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: u are right about that..

CARRIE: I just wonder if there is a way to build a sample survival center somewhere - a prototype to practice on without being "discovered"

VIOLA: Carrie, where to go is a problem beyond telling them where not to go, as we may have tens of thousands of folks going to those specific locations at the last minute. Then what? Prototype (secret) site - why not? Nothing to stop one. I think there will be many, many of these.

CARRIE: Perhaps we'll have to design something to accommodate these tens of thousands

VIOLA: Best bet on safe places is for each responsible person to read what is written about what the dangers are, what safety precautions to take, and then make a decision based on their personal life.

CARRIE: Agreed.

VIOLA: The government won't be able to care for folks, my bet is they will just throw everyone onto their own resources. There may be tent cities, beans and rice, but not for long.

CARRIE: Identifying and utilizing resources is the crux of the issue.

VIOLA: In addition, I think those places will be problem places in short order.

NORSEMAN: Yes...

CARRIE: Beans and rice can be planted - they each have a short growing season. Rice requires lots of water, but beans don't require much.

VIOLA: My thought is that the primary goals here is not to care for these thousands/millions, but to empower them to care for themselves. Its the only way!

NORSEMAN: People need knowledge..

CARRIE: Agreed. People will have to be able to rely on themselves for survival - much like folks did in the recent past.

VIOLA: Rather than say, go to this place and you will be sheltered in a tent and fed, we should say here's what is required, now arm yourself with survival tools and make proper plans.

NORSEMAN: Viola: right

VIOLA: If we had a thousand people and we told them arm yourself with these tools and techniques and plan a place, then they are taking care of themselves. This same thousand folks, if we emphasized a safe place, would say, heck, I'll just go there when the time comes, and then there are problems.

CARRIE: I can see where a lot of people will die because they will not take responsibility for their own survival. In fact, our medical system is based on this!

VIOLA: They haven't prepared, they are all in one place, the food runs out and the power games start.

NORSEMAN: Viola: u right about that...

VIOLA: One of the biggest challenges is getting folks to focus on what it will be like. Hospitals not reachable, food in the stores just not there, roads impassable, phone lines down, sunlight dim, etc.

NORSEMAN: Viola: if people are more prepared, they will be less afraid... etc.!!!

VIOLA: Absolutely! If they can see solutions, they maybe can deal with it. I think this is one aspect of denial. That there are no alternate roads to take, so one just shuts their eyes.

CARRIE: Agreed

NORSEMAN: I agree

VIOLA: So, in the solution set, what are we missing?

NORSEMAN: Viola: communication

VIOLA: We have housing, food production, we're addressing energy. Norseman, what do you mean, communication?

NORSEMAN: Viola: no telephone etc. in the aftertime..

VIOLA: I see perhaps an Internet type of communication, with dishs on high points linking up. Short wave radio might be a great short term solution. If folks agree ahead of time on the channels, etc. Problem here is that gangs might tune into this to locate where groups are. Whatever is done needs to have safety in mind. Long distance communication I think will be down and gone. In the old days, mail from another continent was a once in a life time affair, practically. My ancestors came over from Germany, and expected to get a letter from home only when someone died, etc. Without satellite linkups in the sky, which will be torn out of the sky, there won't be any physical way to communicate across the oceans.

NORSEMAN: Viola: What about 'radio installations'. I mean those things that ...???

CARRIE: Can electricity be easily made and harnessed?

VIOLA: Carrie, energy can be generated from windmills and water wheels, etc., perhaps other methods, and can be used to power communication, radio, sure. Lazarus' thought was that the bike generator could at a minimum power a short wave radio. Carrie, I think that folks should just plan on having to help themselves, not look for ANY assistance, as this is the safest route.

NORSEMAN: Yes...

VIOLA: The Aftertime can be terrible, or can be a subsistence, and it is up to them to help themselves!

NORSEMAN: Viola: Yes..

VIOLA: This should be our message, I think.

NORSEMAN: Viola: I agree.

CARRIE: Agree also

VIOLA: I'll tell you what we're missing, we're missing saving education material and the arts - music and dance and cooking and such. Folks should collect text books, and plan apprenticeship programs. Musical instruments, how to built them, theater techniques, all this is something not to be minimized.

CARRIE: One of the main ingredients in the medical "model" that I am developing, relies on intuition and psychic type healing as factors.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: Yes, you are right about psychic healing etc..

VIOLA: Carrie, psychic healing has a basis in medical history. The will to live is prime, as any doctor will attest.

CARRIE: Actually, I think those that don't survive the PS are the lucky ones!

VIOLA: The attitude of the care giver is also very important.

CARRIE: I know, I see psychic healing taking place all the time - especially with children.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: children are more open to paranormal experiences etc...

VIOLA: Most people want to look to the government to feed and house them, someone in charge to take care of them, they will grab any excuse.

CARRIE: Yet, psychic healing cannot take place unless a person is willing to accept it and thus become a participant. I agree. Especially in this society which fosters dependence on a huge social structure.

NORSEMAN: Viola: right about that. People will know that if the time arrives.

VIOLA: Psychic healing can be termed "the will to live", which is what I did, so that it connects with medical history and what every doctor will attest to. In fact, you were talking about much more than just the will to live, as I well know. I think we should stress self help, and maybe we should look over the hub text to see if that message is stressed. Self help.

NORSEMAN: Viola: I think that there are more aspects to psychic healing then we yet know..

VIOLA: Carrie is not on the wrong track here.

CARRIE: That's right, you do know! Both our survivals could be termed miraculous. The focus should be helping others to help themselves.

VIOLA: I think a big part of what we could add to TT is recipes. People focus on meals for more than just food. Its a social hour, and something to look forward to.

CARRIE: All we lack are the ingredients....(haha)

VIOLA: Love is associated with food a lot, from babe at the breast to home cooking.

CARRIE: Right! Food nourishes much more than the body

VIOLA: Depression can be alleviated with music and tasty food.

NORSEMAN: Viola: I agree.

VIOLA: If folks think earthworms and larva and mushrooms, etc. Its yuck!

CARRIE: And a good bottle of vintage wine..

VIOLA: Earthworms are Omega 3 oil and 82% protein, but even Darryl admits the taste is poor. Wine! yes yes yes

CARRIE: We must save the wine!

VIOLA: Earthworms are dried and made into a protein powder. We must make the wine! Think of the Aftertime You can tell I'm a wino, I love a glass of wine at the end of the day. I read somewhere that there is a group of students, Florida or the Carolinas or Alabama or some such, that is working up bug recipes. Wish I could locate that.

CARRIE: Me too! A fine glass of Chardonnay or Mountain Chablis

NORSEMAN: Viola: what about those things that people use to catch fish. A kind of worm.

VIOLA: Norseman, you mean to eat?

NORSEMAN: Viola: Yes

VIOLA: Those are earthworms, at least over here, the favorite bait. One goes out in the early morning and picks them up off the ground, as they come up due to the dew and darkness. Fish like them!

NORSEMAN: Viola: Yes, those things..

VIOLA: I don't know how picky fish are, though.

CARRIE: Perhaps, one could store a couple of years worth of dried beans, grains, etc. for after the PS. After the PS, they could grow the seeds that they have saved, also. Get some good crops going to replace the food used up in the first 2 years.

VIOLA: Maintaining parts and chemicals is a big worry, but we have TT folks looking into that. Yes, storing up for the first 2 years is a good idea, crucial.

CARRIE: One would have to eat a lot of worms to sustain oneself.

VIOLA: Both approaches are important 1) survive the shift and have supplies for a time, 2) Aftertime living with a comprehensive solution set. Maybe we should focus on that, short and long term. I don't think we have that focus in TT. Good idea.

CARRIE: Perhaps we need to figure out what will grow the best in PS climate and plan on planting it

VIOLA: Earthworms DO grow like crazy. You should see the statistics that Darryl put up. They grown like mad. PS climate is gloomy and damp, almost continuous rain. Ferns? Moss? Not much!

CARRIE: So do rodents! They multiply very rapidly.

VIOLA: The crops folks are used to, domesticated plants, take advantage of our usual weather.

CARRIE: Rice will grow in a moist climate. Perhaps we can use solar energy

VIOLA: Yup, I think cockroaches and rats will be everywhere. Where this is the last resort (at least in my thinking) we should mention this as a possibility. Rice needs some sunlight, though, right?

CARRIE: Actually, I would prefer a roasted rat over a worm.

VIOLA: However, if we have indoor lighting, the fact that it likes the water is a plus! It will be, I suspect, quite humid.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: maybe it's tasty

VIOLA: Cook them well, no disease, right? No medium rare How would you like your rat?

Rare please. (yuck)

CARRIE: I've got a hamster that would make a fine meal. Call her Fat May

VIOLA: I had a hamster called Hamlet. He was very independent. Wouldn't come when called, but then I guess they don't. No pets, this is something that some folks will find hard to adapt to.

CARRIE: Hamlet? That's cute name. We have Mama, Daddy, Runt, Fat May, Thelma and Louise

VIOLA: You know, when you think of the average household, the personalities there, it will be interesting times.

CARRIE: Hamsters reproduce rapidly! Perhaps they are tastier than rats!

VIOLA: The movie Titanic is not out of place here.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: maybe,,, ?

CARRIE: Pets will be considered a food source. Dogs may consider us to be a food source also. I guess it works both ways.

VIOLA: Hey, growing rodents is not a bad idea! Ron was saying that rabbits are a good thought, as they multiply like crazy and eat all kind of vegetation trash that folks won't want to touch.

CARRIE: Vultures and buzzards will be plentiful. Perhaps they will be a good source of food.

VIOLA: Not only will most folks not want to even think about it, those that do want to prepare will find they are dealing with the usual idiots in a household. We eat sharks now, and I think that's a splendid idea! Eat them before they eat us!

NORSEMAN: Viola: yes..

VIOLA: Can you imagine, the responsible head of household trying to prepare. He gets hydroponics in the basement, a windmill on the roof.

CARRIE: We must also think of ways to protect ourselves from predators.

VIOLA: He says, the poodle will have to go, we'll kill him for food, and the wife says "no, no, poopsie has to have her usual fresh meat from the butcher!". I can see it now. Predators such as dog packs? I think dog packs will be prevalent. They're as bad as wolves.

NORSEMAN: Viola: it's a thing that could happen..

VIOLA: If you consider that living will be indoors, artificial lights, etc., then it is minimized. Dog packs and predators should be eaten. Killed and eaten. Bow and arrow, knives, guns perhaps thought bullets and the like may be missing. Cross bow?

CARRIE: Yes, dog packs, cat prides. We will have to learn to be hunters as well as gatherers.

NORSEMAN: Viola: what about hunting for food? Yes, a cross bow.

VIOLA: Perhaps we should arrange our suggestions into more than just short and long term survival. Long term survival may be subsistence, high tech, various gradations, etc.

CARRIE: I agree. There are so many factors involved. Basically, survival will be primitive at best. We won't forget the knowledge ... just will need to utilize different materials.

VIOLA: Knowledge is something that can be disseminated. If a few places here and there save it, then teaching can be done, as today. Apprentices, etc.

CARRIE: Just thought of something....the oceans. The oceans may offer the best source of short and long term survival. They have plenty of fish. Water can be desalinated.

VIOLA: Coast lines will be a problem. First place the poles will be melting and forcing survivors back inland. Thus, the moving coastline will be increasingly crowded! A boat with desalination facilities may be OK, fish and water, but scurvy was always a problem in the old days! Did you see the movie Waterworld? If not, see it, as it shows the lifestyle.

NORSEMAN: Viola: I saw the movie..

VIOLA: Everyone looked so healthy, what a laugh, Hollywood!

CARRIE: Scurvy is going to be a problem anyway, due to lack of vitamin C. Perhaps people need to store a 10 year supply of that.

NORSEMAN: Viola: but in some way, it told something..

VIOLA: But living on the coast and fishing is definitely a survival mode!

CARRIE: Pineapple grows well on coastal areas - great source of vitamin C

VIOLA: I suspect that this will be taken advantage of by those already living along the coast, a natural evolution in fishing villages, for sure. If they survive the tidal waves.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: I use something called 'enchinace'. I caught a cold this week, and in about 2 days it was gone..

VIOLA: An excellent suggestion! The vitamin section is on my to-do list for this next month. But how much sunlight does pineapple need?

CARRIE: Probably a lot more than what will be available. I wonder what the Eskimos did for vitamin C?

VIOLA: I think the vitamin problem may require that we learn how to manufacture certain vitamins. How hard it is? It's certainly being done today.

CARRIE: How long will there be little sunlight?

VIOLA: Perhaps a solution is to find atypical vitamin producers among those things that will thrive in the Aftertime climate. Can be surprising discoveries. Time for some research. Eskimos! A good research topic, for sure.

NORSEMAN: Viola: okay, I will try to find some more links with info about vitamins..

VIOLA: Dim and gloomy and damp for at least 2 decades. History says 25 years, but the wandering in the desert mentioned in the Bible was for 40 years.

CARRIE: I will help with vitamin info.

VIOLA: There are some good vitamin books, too. The info we need specifically 1) how to manufacture, and 2) atypical sources that will be around in the Aftertime.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: okay...

CARRIE: Where on this planet is a place that is dim and damp? Perhaps we could research how the "natives" survive there.

VIOLA: Well, very north or very south! I think that Finland, Sweden, tip of South America, perhaps. Certainly the Arctic Circle. Good idea!

NORSEMAN: Viola: Yes..

CARRIE: Will it be cold afterwards?

VIOLA: Cold will depend on the climate. If one is located on top of a pole, for sure! New equator, etc. Lots of stuff from this chat for TT. The self help and short and long term emphasis - great help.

NORSEMAN: Yes...

CARRIE: Then we have to learn how to make very warm clothing. Don't think the fabric store will be in business.

NORSEMAN: Clothing is important..

VIOLA: But weaving cloth and spinning yarn from atypical sources is a very important piece!

CARRIE: That is something else that will need to be included in the survival "kit"

VIOLA: My grandmother gave me her spinning wheel, and I learned how to use it. Lumpy yarn, but otherwise OK.

CARRIE: Fur from predatory animals will come in handy.

NORSEMAN: Viola: people have to keep sheep???

VIOLA: For sure, and there are plenty of places worldwide that manufacture their own cloth, just need to find the reference books. Sheep is a great source of clothing material, as wool can be warm. Durable too. However, sheep will compete for vegetable food, unless they eat the hydroponic trash, stems and leaves and the like. One can always eat the sheep too. The main thing is that protein production such as livestock is not efficient. Fish and worms and larva are more efficient. Cloth can be made out of anything fibrous. Flax is from a plant, and is almost as good as cotton. Well, cotton is a plant!

CARRIE: I guess the first step will be to identify our resources (after we determine our needs). Then, we need to figure out what can be realistically stashed for a few years.

VIOLA: Regarding hunting for food or fur. I suspect that with the number of hunters around that this will be the first though. I don't think there will be many animals left! Pretty picked over. A short term solution, perhaps, but not a long term one at all. Not after the first few months, I suspect.

CARRIE: While we develop our own survival resources.

VIOLA: Carrie, lists of what to stash, and what to plan for long term, will be very helpful for folks. Lists, checkoff lists.

NORSEMAN: Viola: agree with that..